mmmfilletofsoul | 7th l o s t s o u l ~ [Voice]

[The last event left Cheyenne in a weird place and since then, she's been rather scarce around the village. Aside from getting food at one of the village restaurants, she's spent most of her time either in her apartment or in the forests just outside the village. Today, she's actually back to her usual spot: sitting on the edge of one of Luceti's many bridges, looking down at the water.]

[A few hours of this goes by until she finally opens her journal and poses a question to the residents. The very thing that's been on her mind all this time.]

It is not uncommon for others to ask questions using these journals, yes? [A pause. She wasn't really expecting an answer to that.]

...what do you think it means to be a "person"?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

semper_cogitans

In a word, no. A monster with those qualities is still a person.

[As if to clarify, Robert continues in an almost explanatory tone.] The Malnosso, for example, in general are monsters in the highest sense. They have no regard for our personal autonomy, or bodily integrity, or our rights to consent or freedom or anything of the sort. They commit acts of atrocities against us, they manipulate us like puppets, and they abuse us to the highest degree. They are undoubtably atrocious and horrifying, to be able to do that...

... But they are still people. Horribly twisted people, but people.

However, that does not give them the right to do what they do to us... [Robert stops, and then his tone softens.] But I could never do it to them...

And I still have hope that they... are not all monsters.

From:

illusional

[Cheyenne doesn't feel much of anything in regards to the Malnosso, but it's his first sentence that strikes out at her.]

A monster could still be a person?

From:

semper_cogitans

[Robert nods, with a slight smile.]

Being a monster and being a person are not mutually-exclusive concepts.

... It all rather depends on what one considers a monster, as well. After all, monstrous behaviour can be... subjective.

I doubt that the Malnosso consider themselves monsters.

From:

illusional

And what of a creature that does consider itself to be a monster?

From:

semper_cogitans

Then I would ask why that creature felt that way.

A truly monstrous person - someone with no remorse, with no compassion, with no ability to atone for mistakes - would not question zir actions. Would not consider zirself a monster.

It is the ability to question it that, I think, allows such a person to at least try to redeem zirself. In some way.

From:

illusional

A monstrous person... I was simply asking about a monster in itself. A creature that is, by it's nature, incapable of feeling such things as remorse or compassion.

Would such a creature be in the wrong to consider itself a monster?

From:

semper_cogitans

I... am honestly not certain.

Incapable of feeling? Biologically incapable? Can a person - or creature, as you say - be blamed for something that zie is incapable of?

... Yet, such a lack of judgment could be dangerous to others. However, there is still a difference. If one does not know the harm one is doing, one lacks intent behind one's actions. The actions themselves may be reprehensible, and not intending them does not excuse them, but it is a very different matter when one intends to cause harm, and one simply causes harm without knowledge.

[Robert himself has hurt people without realizing. It didn't stop him from hurting people just because he didn't know - but it wasn't like he meant to.]

From:

illusional

What of a creature that knowingly causes harm for means of survival? Even knowing their continued survival only means the prolonged pain of other creatures?

[She's slowly growing more specific here.]

If a creature does something they know will cause harm, and yet still feels no regret for their actions, would they not be considered a person?

From:

semper_cogitans

[This is a situation that has never really come up for Robert. He ponders quietly for several long moments, and eventually has something of an awkward answer.]

Causing harm to survive...

In some ways, I suppose all creatures cause... some harm to something to survive. Barring open systems, all things need cycles to sustain themselves; to keep nutrients flowing, for example. Death must occur for life to occur, and vice-versa.

Yet... unnecessary suffering should always be reduced. That is the most ethical thing.

But in the case you outline - causing harm for means of survival - would... would it be considered necessary suffering?

I am not certain... Yet, when you describe that situation, the instigator of it still sounds like a person to me. Zie may not be the... most pleasant individual, but zie still fits the definition of "person"...

From:

illusional

Hm.

I suppose I would have to disagree with you.

From:

semper_cogitans

Why do you feel that way, if I may ask?

... And why such a specific scenario? [It doesn't sound like a scenario that would come up frequently...

...

Unless...]

... Is this related to our prior discussion about your species' feeding habits?

[Robert has a. a very good memory and b. little to no ability to register emotions or context. So yes, it did take him that long to draw a parallel.]

From:

illusional

Yes, it is. The creature I described is how I would describe my fellow illusionists.

And I certainly consider them to be monsters.

From:

semper_cogitans

From what I remember of our conversation... they certainly did seem like monstrous beings in many ways. But... you said that they cannot comprehend emotions, correct? And what sets you apart is your ability to do so, to an extent?

[Quietly, as this is a topic that hits uncomfortably close to home - hell, it describes him to an extent:] There are humans that have trouble comprehending or feeling emotions. Though a human who could not comprehend emotions in any way could do horrendous things, I would not see that human as less than a person.

... Simply a dangerous, and perhaps irredeemable in some aspects, person.

And in any case, none of that applies to you. As far as I am concerned, though your method of feeding is... unorthodox, you are following ethical principles to the best of your ability and therefore I see nothing to object with.

[Of course, Robert has no soul to be devoured, so he kind of has a unique perspective on the whole thing.]

From:

illusional

Hm...

Would you continue to stand by that point even with the knowledge that I have not always been as "ethical" as I appear now?

From:

semper_cogitans

...

[And another thing that hits close to home.]

I have... met people who have challenged my definitions of "ethical" here. They... they are good people. But they have done things that... that I would find distasteful or worse.

... I am not so certain I can judge people as easily as I used to.

[That is a rare admission you're getting, Cheyenne.]

From:

illusional

...does their being "good people" have a strong effect on how you would judge them? In terms of whether they are a person or, perhaps, a monster?

[The answer to that might seem like an obvious one to most, but to someone like Cheyenne...]

From:

semper_cogitans

[Hey, it's something that Robert has trouble with himself. He doesn't begrudge her this question.]

In this situation, it does. I find myself unable to take these actions and judge them without placing them in the context of the greater individual.

... For example, I... I had been... t-taught to consider the ability to commit violent acts as... inherently barbaric. Simply put, people capable of violence were... n-not supposed to be able to be good people...

... But here in Luceti, I have met... many people who are capable of it... and somehow are still capable of being good, kind, caring people as well. These parts coexist in a way that... that I still do not understand. But... b-but is undeniable that they do.

From:

illusional

Hm...

I suppose it would make things difficult, to have believed in such a thing prior to arriving. After all, any creature is capable of acts of violence. Even the smallest of creatures can still cause harm with the proper circumstances.

From:

semper_cogitans

It is different when it is... deliberate. Pre-ordained. When somebody thinks to commit harm, and does it for a reason...

... [Softly:] But... The people I know... they can still do this, and yet be good.

Being a person means... being able to do truly horrible things, as well as truly wonderful. It matters what you choose to do.

From:

illusional

What you choose to do... perhaps it is simply having the capability to make such a choice that deigns a creature as a person...

[That sounds almost more to herself than directed at him. She is trying to figure this out as well, after all.]

From:

semper_cogitans

Is there some reason that you are questioning this, if I may ask?

[Because it is a very profound question to just... ask for no reason.]

Are you hoping to gain a specific insight?

From:

illusional

Perhaps. I am not entirely sure what has possessed me to think on this subject for as long as I have been.

From:

semper_cogitans

Well, it is certainly a fascinating question. And it is one that matters very much to me...

[Robert would hate for people to see his partner as anything less than a person in his own right.]

From:

illusional

Does it? The only time I had the opportunity to see you was during the experiment in which my vision was altered. However, I was under the impression that you were originally a human.

From:

semper_cogitans

I am a human, yes. [Robert nods, though Cheyenne can't see.] But not only is my field of work familiar with those who qualify as people but are not human-like - that is, astrobiology - but my partner is a non-human sapient himself.

Additionally, there are other people here in Luceti I know who are non-human sapients as well, and they deserve the title of person from any perspective I can see.